SPZ - The Last Dog

Discussion about systems that do not use the K6-x processors.
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Uranium235
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Post by Uranium235 » Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:27 am

This link shows the Gigabyte GA-6VA7+ as Tualatin compatible WITH a socket 370 voltage adapter.

http://www.upgradeware.com/english/prod ... bility.htm

This is the same type of adapter I needed to use for the PIIIS 1.4 on my Epox EP-3VWB+.
Here's the actual converter I use:
http://cgi.ebay.com/370-CPU-Celeron-3-C ... dZViewItem

Another concern I would have with the FIC KA-6100 is if the 133FSB has a 1/4 PCI divider. Do you know if it does?

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Post by Jim » Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:02 am

@ KGB : Checked out the link; but there are some differences. That guy was running a Celeron w/ I don't know what voltage requirement. Me, I will be running a P3S w/ 1.45v voltage, so the default voltage that he got would be fine for me, no need to use the silver paint to reset the voltage. You seem to be indicating that ALL 370 socket boards have onboard voltage regulators capable of setting the voltage as low as 1.45v. If that is the case, then the powerleap (Neo) should work on the GA-6VA7+ as far as voltage requirements are concerned, leaving only the issue of how much wattage the mobo can supply the processor.

As far as the KA-6100 is concerned, apparently it has an onboard voltage regulator capable of going down to 1.3v. Were that not the case, then "Bulk88" would have fried his 1.3GHz Celeron by running it on a "Slot T" on a KA-6100 because all the "Slot T" has is jumpers you can use to set a voltage level that the "Slot T" signals the onboard regulator to set. If the onboard regulator is capable of setting the signalled voltage, everything works ok. If not then you get to watch the zif socket melting.

http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=18161
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Post by Jim » Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:37 am

@ Uranium235 : Thanks for the info. The GA-6VA7+ is looking better and better. I like the 4 PCI slots and the ATA/66. I think the KA-6100 also has ATA/66, but that is unclear because one review I saw only gave it ATA/33.

Re the 1/4 divider, I am not sure. But since I already have the board I will find out in due time. Probably do my testing w/ an old QDI AGP card I have floating around, so if the card gets cooked, small loss.

What it begins to look like is I will try to pick up that GA-6VA7+, then run some tests comparing the two boards. FIC, (at least as far as Super 7s is concerned), has a reputation for getting the most memory speed out of the VIA chipset; so that is another consideration to take into account.

Finally one consideration that I have not seen anyone mention is how much power the mobo can supply the CPU. These boards were designed for older processors that ran higher voltage, but lower amperage and wattage. I ran across a chart made for ASUS boards which details the power requirements of various processors. When using a Slot 1 board w/ a Powerleap adapter this is not a problem, because the Powerleap provides power to the processor independantly of the mobo. 370 Socket adapters do not have that feature, and therefore how much power the board can supply the processor becomes an issue.
Last edited by Jim on Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KGB
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Post by KGB » Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:38 am

@Uranium
I didn't check out the compatibilty for the upgradeware.com socket adapter, thank you for bringing it to my attention. I had implied in my previous post, the socket 370 was designed for cpu's requiring lesser voltage than previous cores, and thus have a better chance of being compatible with newer Tualatins. The FCPGA-2 socket is only a pin-out change. It's not as though one is going from a socket 7 to socket 370 (totally incompatible), its only a slight bump, and FCPGA-2 is totally backwards compatible.

@Jim
My celery (1.2 and 1.3) were both 1.45V, regrettably I fried the 1.3 with 1.75V for extended periods of time, and finally the heatsink falling off of the zif socket. Intel does not make ALL cpu cores equal. My Celery has 512K cache, only 256 is enabled, and its cache latency increased to 1ns, rather than P3's 0ns. It is generally from the same wafer, on Intel's website they list all the models make and their specific wafers, see the serial number on the Retail box for date of production and sku. Good overclockers were tB1 cores, and higher clocked stock P3's were made of such a cores, thus requiring the same 1.45V to reach 1.4 GHZ @ 133FSB, while MY 1.2/1.3 celery's only performed stable at 1.2/1.3 at the 1.45V and 100FSB (tA1 core). Sure CPU's have a 15% overhead, and overclockers like me get ambiscious to crank up the speed. So the voltage is not different depending on CPU, it is actually the speed/stability attainable on a CONSTANT voltage supply.

Read the Italian guys post carefully, he HAS a tA1 core, it does 1.5ghz, because that is the general speed they reach (I try to attain 1.6 and 1.72 respectively with my 1.2/1.3 @ 133FSB) @ 1.85V. It's hard to keep it stable, getting a CPU with a low multiplier from the same core as a higher multiplier cpu is more beneficial (though I had no intention of overclocking my celery's until much later, it was a slight afterthought). I do not understand what the general fear you have. Is it of incompatability or of the fear of burning down the Slocket in a ball of flames? Regarding this "Bulk" character (whom by the way resides in NYC like me), is being so vague in his response, I don't think I can really put any trust in it, and he was answering on behalf of a question which was not specific enough to begin with. What that thread starter eventually did is a mystery. Did he even bother? Has it worked, and he not post about it? Some feedback would have been more useful. I would say Jim, what the heck, give the Slot T and P3 a spin, if you get no post after several tries, replace it with the giga byte or find a slot 1 cpu that is known to work (or my powerleap :P )
-K6-2 550 Gigagyte GA-5AX (5.2) 1x512MB GeForce 2 Ti500 64MB
-Pentium III 933 Asus P3C-L 2x128MB GeForce 4 Ti4200 128MB DDR
-Pentium III 750 Asus P3B-F ATi Rage128 GL 32MB
-Celeron 1.2 Asus TUSI-M 2x128MB
-Pentium IV 1.5 DELL 2350 1x128MB
-Athlon 900 Asus K7M 1x256MB 2x128MB GeForce 3 64MB
-AthlonXP-M 2400+ Asus K7V880 2x512MB HIS Radeon HD3850 512MB DDR

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Post by Jim » Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:56 am

@ KGB : The appropriate "Powerleap" for the KA-6100 has been purchased, though not yet received. I probably will, (Definitely will try), pickup the GA-6VA7+ also, as well as the adapter recommended by U235. I am only going to build 1 machine out of this, so it will entail testing to see which combo works best for me, and once determined, the other combo will become a spare backup.

EDIT : Re "Bulk88" and the original threadposter; "Bulk88" answered the original post 3 years and 7 months after the original post was made. Hardly surprizing there was no follow up. Further the 6 stars under his name, and the 60 rigs he is running suggest he is a very experienced user.

These boards were never very common, and are getting hard to get, so I doubt if I will try any radical overclocking w/ it, just want a nice reliable reasonably fast AT.
Last edited by Jim on Sun Dec 03, 2006 3:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Uranium235
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Post by Uranium235 » Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:01 am

Here's a useful link for the power requirements of the PIII's. The PIII-S 1.4 doesn't appear to draw an extraordinary amount of wattage as compared to some earlier CPU's.
http://www.sandpile.org/impl/p3.htm

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Post by Jim » Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:12 am

@ Uranium235 : Hmmmm. Got same sort of data w/ some subjective analysis here :

http://duhvoodooman.com/powrleap/LFL/Slot-T_1.htm

This becomes an issue w/ 370 socket boards because none of the adapters available provide independent power supply to the processor.
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Uranium235
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Post by Uranium235 » Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:21 am

Here's what I was looking at from my link:

Maximum Power

31.2 W (0.13 µm @ 1400 MHz 512 KB L2 @ 1.45V)
as compared to:

30.8 W (0.25 µm @ 550 MHz Pentium III)
34.5 W (0.25 µm @ 600 MHz Pentium III)
34.5 W (0.25 µm @ 600B MHz Pentium III)

which the FIC board should support.

The BIOS on my EP-3VWB+ reports the CPU voltage as being at 1.5V but the CPU temperature never seems to exceed 40C. The PIII-S 1.4 runs cooler than the K6-3+ from my experience.

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Post by Jim » Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:50 pm

@ Uranium235 : K, seems you are right re power requirements. As regards the FIC KA-6100 the documented settings go up to 5.5 x 100 thereby officially supporting a P3 550, (probably 25 Micron). That has a typical power load of 21 watts according to your chart, which is the same typical power load as the 1.4GHz P3S Tualatin. (Also 21 watts). The maximum power load is a bit off w/ the P3 550 having a maximum of 30.8 Watts, (as you pointed out), while the Tualatin's maximum load is 31.2 watts. 0.4w / 30.8w = 1/77 or approximately a 1.3% overload which should be well within design tolerances.

However it seems I was wrong about what the issue IS. See following quote.

Quote : But even then, there is an additional, more subtle risk.... As mentioned above, the Tualatin Celerons pull higher amounts of current and power than the old P2 and P3 processors that most BX boards were designed to run. Thus, running these processors with the Slot-T will result in those current and wattage loads being supplied through the motherboard VRM.

The question becomes whether or not the VRM on your particular motherboard is up to the task. As an example, let's consider the Intel SE440BX motherboard that came in my old Dimension XPS-R400. Fortunately, Dell hardware maven Rob Hancock has covered this subject in some detail in his excellent Dimension Processor Upgrade FAQ, on the XPS-R Processor Upgrade page. At the bottom of that page, Rob presents a table that summarizes the electrical characteristics of a number of P2 and P3 processors, the latter including both Katmai and Coppermine core models.

Rob calculates an "Estimated Voltage Regulator Dissipation" wattage for each processor, as an indicator of the stress placed on the XPS-R's onboard VRM by a given processor. Based upon successful upgrade reports by various Dell XPS-R owners, Rob has classified a number of CPU's as "maybe OK", even though they will cause the onboard VRM to run outside of Intel's published spec for the SE440BX. He estimates the "danger zone"--the threshold where the dissipation wattage is getting dangerously high--to be somewhere in the range of 10 to 11 watts.

At right is a modified version of Rob's table, with the electrical parameters of the Tualatin Celeron added at the bottom, based upon the published Intel spec. Note that the estimated VR dissipation factor falls right into Rob's "danger zone" transition area.

So how big of a risk would an upgrader be taking if he/she installed a 1.4GHz Tualatin Celeron and Slot-T in an older BX system? Frankly, it's very hard to say, and the degree of danger will be determined by the specific type of motherboard used, with older models posing the higher risk. However, published specs are one thing, and how a motherboard is actually built and what it can stand up to may be quite another.

It's well known that engineers often "over-design" systems to provide a margin of safety, and perhaps that margin is big enough to handle the added strain. The question becomes whether or not an upgrader is willing to assume such risk. Unquote

Image

You will notice, looking at this chart, that the power disapation of the VRM is not directly proportional to the power consumed by the processor; but rather increases by approximately 32.5% going from a P3 550 (25 Micron) to a 1.4 GHz Celeron. So it would seem that perhaps it would be wise to put a heatsink on the voltage regulator module chip.
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2x 80G Maxtor (7200) Ducted w/ 2x486 Fans Mount
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KGB
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Post by KGB » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:29 pm

Image
l
DasMan, this is actualy my P3C-L motherboard with the Powerleap and Celery. Yes, I have stated before that the Tualatin and P3C-L stopped working. However, it seems to work wonderfully again :) :!: The heatsink is a ThermalTake Volcano 7+, I had to remove the fan because, it blocked the first RDRAM Slot 1. This was also true in the P3B-F motherboard which has 4 dimm slots, and the Heatsink without the fan took up the first DRAM slot.
-K6-2 550 Gigagyte GA-5AX (5.2) 1x512MB GeForce 2 Ti500 64MB
-Pentium III 933 Asus P3C-L 2x128MB GeForce 4 Ti4200 128MB DDR
-Pentium III 750 Asus P3B-F ATi Rage128 GL 32MB
-Celeron 1.2 Asus TUSI-M 2x128MB
-Pentium IV 1.5 DELL 2350 1x128MB
-Athlon 900 Asus K7M 1x256MB 2x128MB GeForce 3 64MB
-AthlonXP-M 2400+ Asus K7V880 2x512MB HIS Radeon HD3850 512MB DDR

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Post by Jim » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:35 pm

Unfortunately I did not win that auction for the GA-6VA7+. Problem was I had to go to work, (in a non computer environment), 2 1/2 hours before the auction ended. That circumstance allowed the "Last Minute Louies" to take plenty of shots at my bid. Selling price was $207.50
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Post by DonPedro » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:39 pm

twohundred and seven dollars for an old mainboard???? what is going on here?

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Post by Jim » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:34 pm

Well Peter I bid $205.00 two and a half hours before it ended, which was $54.00 higher than the next highest bidder. I radioed my boss and got him to check twenty minutes before it ended; and then it was at $174.00 w/ me still winning. But w/ that much time to rebid when I couln't respond, the other guy just kept bidding higher till he won.
Very hard to win auctions that end during working hours.

Why so high? You wouldn't understand. You build ATXs. I don't know why you bother to tweak to get a little more performance out of a Super7 ATX, when you could just get an Athlon, or P4, and stick it in your case; and have something 4 times as fast. I build ATs, and that was the BEST AT board I have ever seen!!!! It would support a 1.4GHz Tualatin, which runs faster than a 1.8GHz P4. Furthermore it could be overclocked to run even faster because Tualatins are good OC Chips. Add to that the fact that those boards were never very common; and now rare as hen's teeth. In addition to all that, unlike a 370 Socket ASUS, (1 AGP & 3 PCI Slots ATA/33), or a 370 Socket PC Chips, (No AGP, 1 PCI Slot and on board everything), this thing was a FULL Feature Baby Board; (1 AGP, 4 PCI Slots, & ATA/66).

EDIT : Think about it, OCed an AT faster than a 1.8GHz P4
Last edited by Jim on Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:46 am, edited 4 times in total.
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2x 80G Maxtor (7200) Ducted w/ 2x486 Fans Mount
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Uranium235
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Post by Uranium235 » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:43 am

Wow $207! That was an excellent AT board, maybe the finest available, but I am surprised at what it went for. I think I paid about $35 for my EP-3VWB+ on ebay. I only wished the Epox had an AGP slot but otherwise it's fine. It's a matter of being at the right place at the right time I guess...and knowing what your looking at.
Jim, if I see any more Tulatin AT boards on ebay I'll send you a PM next time.

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Post by Jim » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:55 am

Thanks Uranium 235!!! -- I sent the seller an E-Mail : Hi (My E-Bay Name) here. Just got outbid on the Gigabyte GA-6VA7+ that you were selling. Don't know where you got it; but if you ever get another one could you please time your auction to end on the weekend so I can be in position to fight off the last minute Louies; instead of at work in a non computer environment. This auction could have gone a fair bit higher.

Thanks.
Superpuppy 3
K6-3+ 450 ACZ (6x100)
DFI K6BV3+/66 Rev B2 (2 Meg) w/ 2x28mm Chipset Fans
2x256 Meg PC 133 Hynix SDRAM
1x 20G Maxtor (7200)
2x 80G Maxtor (7200) Ducted w/ 2x486 Fans Mount
52/24/52/16 LG CDR/RW/DVD
8/4/3/12/24/16/32 LG Super Multi
ATI 9000 aiw Radeon AGP
SB Audigy 1 MP3 Sound
CMD 649 IDE Controller
NEC USB 2 Card

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