K6-2 533 overclock question?

Discussion relating to Socket 7 hardware.
Jake
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Post by Jake »

Jim wrote:I heard you say something about 768 Meg. - Presumably SDRAM. Windows 98 can recognize any amount of SDRAM you throw at it; but it can only use 256 Meg .....
Hi Jim... That is just not true ...I have easily forced the use of 95% of 768k just using Bitdefenders online virus scan. w/out the unoffical service pack. Normal day to day running is in the 3 to 400 meg range

Jim wrote: One other thing. I am very surprized that you seem to be getting better results with your onboard cache disabled with a plain K6-2. Have you tried enabling it and leaving all other settings the same as what you use when it is disabled to see what that will give you? (Possibly a system crash, - but it is worth trying to see if that will give you still better results.)
I found out was happening with that ....it is grabbing system ram for L2 cache and ignoring the on board chip...plus I have a choice of sizes, 256k, 512k, and 1meg. ...am currently tinkering with 256k setting.

In the meantime, am hoping I can learn more from you'all and maybe if I'm lucky I can fnd out what those other settings are for.

Whatever the case, I really apprciate your's and DonPedro's help.

Jake
Jim
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Post by Jim »

I am not going to argue with you. I have Norton Utilities 2000 which among other things can track how much RAM is in use at any given time. I NEVER exceeded 261,000K until I installed the "Unofficial Service Pack"; then it went up to over 400 Meg.

As for your board grabbing system RAM for cache purposes, that might be possible; though one wonders what is enabling it to do that. Neat trick.
Superpuppy 3
K6-3+ 450 ACZ (6x100)
DFI K6BV3+/66 Rev B2 (2 Meg) w/ 2x28mm Chipset Fans
2x256 Meg PC 133 Hynix SDRAM
1x 20G Maxtor (7200)
2x 80G Maxtor (7200) Ducted w/ 2x486 Fans Mount
52/24/52/16 LG CDR/RW/DVD
8/4/3/12/24/16/32 LG Super Multi
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Jake
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Post by Jake »

Sorry Jim... offending you was the last thing on my mind....

Thanks very much for all your efforts on my behalf


Jake
Jim
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Post by Jim »

You didn't offend me. But it is my clear understanding that windows 98 SE has a 256 Meg Ram utilization limit; which can be overridden with the aid of the "Unofficial Service Pack". It is quite possible that you have some other software installed that performs the same function.
Superpuppy 3
K6-3+ 450 ACZ (6x100)
DFI K6BV3+/66 Rev B2 (2 Meg) w/ 2x28mm Chipset Fans
2x256 Meg PC 133 Hynix SDRAM
1x 20G Maxtor (7200)
2x 80G Maxtor (7200) Ducted w/ 2x486 Fans Mount
52/24/52/16 LG CDR/RW/DVD
8/4/3/12/24/16/32 LG Super Multi
ATI 9000 aiw Radeon AGP
SB Audigy 1 MP3 Sound
CMD 649 IDE Controller
NEC USB 2 Card
DonPedro
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Post by DonPedro »

jake,

I think jim is right with his observation about the usage of ram under win98 (although I think the limit is 512 mb for unpatched win98se).

also I don't understand how you are able to measure a 95% memory usage (out of 768mb ram) by using an ONLINE virus scanner ....

another very mysterious thing to me is that you came to the conviction that your mainboard ms5169 has the capability to fetch and use system ram for the purpose of caching and that you are given the choice whether you like it to be 256kb, 512kb or 1mb of size. that is an impossibility and an absurdity. it is impossible because the technology of an ali-5 chipset does not feature such a thing. and it is absurd because this would mean that memory of the same speed would be used for "cache" memory. the main purpose of cacheing is to read data from memory many times faster than if we would read directly from main memory. it does only work if the cache memory can be accessed and read faster than main memory. if the cache memory is of the same type and quality as the main memory then this kind of cacheing would not only not gain performance but actually loose because of the administrative overhead.

as I mentionned before you should not be distracted by some "applilcations" that tell you by numbers how fast they are but I would like to add that "feeling" performance gain is also not the scientific way. the less an application does read from and write to the same memory adresses and the more its data it makes computations on fits into the cpu-cache (32kb level-1 data cache in case of a k6-2-5xx) the less one needs mainboard cache enabled. in my opinion there are only a few applications out there that fall into that category. I would say 5 to 10 out of 100. the performance of all other applications depend heavily on the existence of cache memory, the more the better.

below I give you some data I produced and compiled some years ago. it will give you an idea of the importance of cache memory (mainboard cache and cpu-cache). I used the free benchtool OSMARK v 10b7 to produce these numbers and you can download it here
Attachments
k6-2 gegen k6-2+550.png
k6-2 gegen k6-2+550.png (33.66 KiB) Viewed 13612 times
Jake
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Post by Jake »

Hi ...things have taken a left turn here ....but FYI...unpatched 98se
Attachments
Alloc.jpg
Alloc.jpg (11.83 KiB) Viewed 13594 times
mem.jpg
mem.jpg (41.46 KiB) Viewed 13594 times
Jim
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Post by Jim »

Well plainly you are somehow managing to use more memory than by rights you should be able to in my experience. Don't ask me how.
Superpuppy 3
K6-3+ 450 ACZ (6x100)
DFI K6BV3+/66 Rev B2 (2 Meg) w/ 2x28mm Chipset Fans
2x256 Meg PC 133 Hynix SDRAM
1x 20G Maxtor (7200)
2x 80G Maxtor (7200) Ducted w/ 2x486 Fans Mount
52/24/52/16 LG CDR/RW/DVD
8/4/3/12/24/16/32 LG Super Multi
ATI 9000 aiw Radeon AGP
SB Audigy 1 MP3 Sound
CMD 649 IDE Controller
NEC USB 2 Card
Jake
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:09 pm

Post by Jake »

Hi Jim

Looks like Kalabok was correct, found a review of this motherboard over at Tom's Hardware .... in fact, according to them the maximum was 83mhz.

kalabok wrote:i think, your L2 cache chip does not sustain 100 mhz fsb.
95 is the maximum ... to be sure, please post its readings. you will find it near the cpu / ram slots. your k6 533afx should definitly do 550 @ stock.
At any rate, with one exception, every bench I did showed slower results with external cache enabled. Would be nice to have it, because I know it helps when it works.

By the way, was ver1.2 of wpcrset the most recent?

Was looking at your posts on your project....cool 8)

Jake
Jim
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Post by Jim »

Yes, as far as I know 1.2 is the only available version of WPCrSet. Have several projects, Have just got SC-X up and running. Am still having some problems with it. Not sure why. No time right now to detail what is happening; but since this is my first ATX machine, I will be asking people here for help, BELIEVE me !! Re your cache, situation, then you should get a K6Plus processor. Preferably a K6-3+ 450 ACZ. Yum, Yum.
Superpuppy 3
K6-3+ 450 ACZ (6x100)
DFI K6BV3+/66 Rev B2 (2 Meg) w/ 2x28mm Chipset Fans
2x256 Meg PC 133 Hynix SDRAM
1x 20G Maxtor (7200)
2x 80G Maxtor (7200) Ducted w/ 2x486 Fans Mount
52/24/52/16 LG CDR/RW/DVD
8/4/3/12/24/16/32 LG Super Multi
ATI 9000 aiw Radeon AGP
SB Audigy 1 MP3 Sound
CMD 649 IDE Controller
NEC USB 2 Card
Jake
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Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:09 pm

Post by Jake »

Jim,

just dropped by to let you all know, got k6-2 running rock solid
at 550 now ... :D You guys where the biggest help ....thanks!

Also, thought you might be interested in this bit of trivia from
Raymond Chen, one of the Microsoft programmers envolved
in all the Windows 9x series, he details how 9x allocates memory
and 95 /98 limits.

http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archi ... 54640.aspx

Jake

Ps: Cheer'n for ya on your project there
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swaaye
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Post by swaaye »

Win9x and >512MB might be pointless anyway, from a practical standpoint. The OS has major limitations with memory management, relating to 8/16-bit backwards compatibility apparently. It will simply run "out of memory" eventually due to a ridiculously small "resource memory".
http://aroundcny.com/Technofile/texts/tec041501.html

So really you can't do the same kind of resource heavy work on 9x as you can with NT. I'm sure this was rather apparent though lol.
Jim
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Post by Jim »

I say again, the "Unofficial Sevice Pack" for WIN98-SE resolves all memory problems. Only problem with it, is you have to do a fresh install, (complete with Mobo Drivers), then install the "Unofficial Service Pack" immediately thereafter. Otherwise it will overwrite newer files with older ones without telling you.
Superpuppy 3
K6-3+ 450 ACZ (6x100)
DFI K6BV3+/66 Rev B2 (2 Meg) w/ 2x28mm Chipset Fans
2x256 Meg PC 133 Hynix SDRAM
1x 20G Maxtor (7200)
2x 80G Maxtor (7200) Ducted w/ 2x486 Fans Mount
52/24/52/16 LG CDR/RW/DVD
8/4/3/12/24/16/32 LG Super Multi
ATI 9000 aiw Radeon AGP
SB Audigy 1 MP3 Sound
CMD 649 IDE Controller
NEC USB 2 Card
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swaaye
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Post by swaaye »

It doesn't solve the memory problem in the link I posted. That's apparently a fundamental issue with the OS.

Here's some more info on it. It looks like some people are working on it though.
http://www.msfn.org/board/16bit-heaps-e ... 30991.html
Jim
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Post by Jim »

Perhaps this might help :
_______________________________________________________________________

This tweak increases the amount of RAM windows uses to cache Files & Directories.

Pros: increased systems speed

cons: Less available memory


changes can be seen in--> Control Panel -> (double)-click System applet -> Performance tab -> File System button -> Hard Disk tab -> "Typical role of this computer box".


------------------------------------------------------------------------
NEW Setting...Cached Files.....Cached Directories....RAM in KiloBytes
------------------------------------------------------------------------
2170 KB.............65280.......................255...................2170 KB (2.1 MB)
..150 KB...............6144.......................200.....................150 KB
..108 KB...............4992.......................144.....................108 KB
....80 KB...............4000.......................128.......................80 KB
....64 KB...............3872.........................80.......................64 KB
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
OLD Setting...Cached Files....Cached Directories....RAM in Kilobytes
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Server....2729........................64........................40 KB
Desktop Computer .677........................32.........................16 KB
Mobile/Docking........160........................16...........................4 KB


Experiment with each setting, see which one suits your purpose better, depending on what you use your machine for: business, graphics rendering, CAD, animation/video editing, software development, dekstop publishing, gaming, Internet, cd burning etc.
Just remember to restart Windows after each change.
_______________________________________________________________________

The foregoing is the readme that comes with a program that I downloaded from "Bronx69" called "Ultra Cache"
Attachments
Ultra cache.ZIP
(1.66 KiB) Downloaded 454 times
Superpuppy 3
K6-3+ 450 ACZ (6x100)
DFI K6BV3+/66 Rev B2 (2 Meg) w/ 2x28mm Chipset Fans
2x256 Meg PC 133 Hynix SDRAM
1x 20G Maxtor (7200)
2x 80G Maxtor (7200) Ducted w/ 2x486 Fans Mount
52/24/52/16 LG CDR/RW/DVD
8/4/3/12/24/16/32 LG Super Multi
ATI 9000 aiw Radeon AGP
SB Audigy 1 MP3 Sound
CMD 649 IDE Controller
NEC USB 2 Card
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